🌴298. Stop Selling, Start Serving feat. Mark Garrett Hayes (Weekend Rewind)

Today I’m diving into one of my favourite topics—building a facilitation and training business— with the brilliant Mark Garrett Hayes, founder of TrainingBusiness.com and host of the Training Business podcast. Mark’s career spans Disney, banking in Germany, and FinTech, and through it all he kept gravitating back to training. We unpack how he’s turned that calling into a business—without cheesy sales tactics.

In this episode

• Why you don’t need to be the SME—you need to stand up (to stand out)
• The 3 R’s for growth: References vs Referrals vs Recommendations (and why only one really moves the needle)
• How to turn your natural network into paying clients (with just 3 champions)
• BANT for trainers (Budget, Authority, Need, Timing) — qualifying without feeling “salesy”
• Using your facilitation superpower in sales: talk about them, not you
• Building your ICP/Avatar so conversations click faster
• Creative outreach that actually works: direct mail + short Loom videos (pattern interrupt!)
• Reframing the game: it’s not sales; it’s a service conversation

My take

I loved how Mark removes the sting from “selling.” If I treat sales like facilitation—designing an experience, leading with curiosity, and creating clarity—everything gets easier. Also: the “recommendations over referrals” nuance is a keeper. Tiny numbers, big business. 🙌

Timestamp-ish guide

• 00:00 Intro & why we make false assumptions about marketing a training biz
• 04:05 Mark’s Disney → banking → FinTech pivots (and why training kept calling)
• 11:18 “Stand up to stand out” (confidence without being the SME)
• 16:10 References vs Referrals vs Recommendations (how to coach your champions)
• 23:55 BANT for facilitators—qualify like a pro
• 31:40 ICP/Avatar: sounding like you “get them” from the first line
• 38:00 Use facilitation skills in sales (ethos / logos / pathos)
• 45:15 Millennials vs phone calls: direct mail + Loom to cut through
• 52:10 “Serve before you deserve” — Mark’s parting line

Swipe these prompts/scripts

• Recommendation ask (DM/email):
• “Thanks again for being in my corner. I noticed three people in your network who match the outcomes I deliver. Would you be open to a warm recommendation intro? I’ve drafted a 3-line blurb you can paste—easy.”
• Loom opener (3 mins max):

1. Who I am (ethos). 2) Why I’m reaching out now (logos). 3) Why it matters to you (pathos) + one clear next step.

• Qualify with BANT (lightweight):
• “If this were useful, where would the budget sit? Who else should see this? What result would make this a win in Q4? If it helps, I can run a 30-min taster next week.”

Tools & names we mention

• TrainingBusiness.com (Mark’s platform + podcast)
• Robert Cialdini — Influence and Pre-Suasion
• Loom / Bonjoro for quick personalized videos

Connect with Mark

• LinkedIn: Mark Garrett Hayes
• Podcast: Training Business
• Email: mark@trainingbusiness.com

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